Curse

Shendaar · Jan 08, 2007, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Rank is fine. The idea is to make the step from r0 to r3 a fun and useful experience.

elsalamandra · Jan 08, 2007, 08:12 AM // 08:12

To Gimme Money Please
Quote:
Originally Posted by elsalamandra
Well well well!

HA.

Heroes Ascent.

The home of bitter rank discrimination by a few if not many stuck-up full of themsleves players who think they are god's gift to Guild Wars PvP.

I just hope that they make changes to make this more enjoyable for avaerage players and not the atmosphere this place has.

I for one am rank 5 and it cost me a few many months to get to rank 5 and of course many will now make adverse comments to this my reply but I am not bothered with what you may say.

The truth of the matter is that HA constitutes, for unranked players, to spend a lot of time trying to get into any form of team and then, whether by luck or bad luck, they start to progress, high ranked players (names of a few I could mention here but I wont) insult them, humiliate them by using words like these:

NOOB go back to PvE.

I have a brain for sale for each of you noobs.

Rank 1 or 2 = Nooby brainless basher.

Bow to us we pawned you you noobs.

The list could go on and if the OP is to better HA, Gaile these are things that you should know even though you may know already and nothing can be done about these sad individuals, but I sometimes play the devil's advocate.

Breaking news....! We all started at r0. If one wants to get into the game, they will play and break the rank barrier such as you have done. Also, people QQ about rank discrimination, but if you're truly good, you'll be found early on. I played with my first few r9s when i had 177 fame, was running with r9+ groups by r4. Rank discrimination? I think not. Skill discrimination? Yes. Fact of the matter is, lower ranks have a reputation for not being very good because the large majority of them are not very good. They all cry about bitter rank discrimination, etc., etc., but in reality they simply do not have the skills and experience to play with the upper echelons. ZOMFG, I wasn't good enough for the NBA.... DISCRIMINATION.... no, I'm just not good enough. Get over it. Rank really doesn't mean anything, there are numerous high ranks I've had the misfortune of playing with that I would not touch with a 30 foot long pole they're so bad. If one really wants to get into HA, they'll spend the time getting that rank and/or skill, regardless of how much the rank actually means.

__________________________________________________ _______________

LOL. Get over it you say.

I dont have to get over anything dude.

The fact of the matter is that I do not agree with what you say that lower ranked players are 'not good'.

Firstly who are you or me or any other person to judge players just because they dont have the bambi, wolfie etc emote.

I find it very hard to grasp that you played very frequently with rank9 +, sonce you do not specify whether they were PUGed or they were friends/guildies.

No matter what you or I say say, and we can be here discusing this point foerever, it still does not solve the problem of rank discrimination in HA, whether we like it or not.

Obviously, the high ranked players are the ones who argue that there is no such thing in HA and that is just so ironic.

ANET will never ever be able to stop this dead in its tracks unless they devise stages for rank through different area like the arenas that where once in pve, i.e. as an example 1 HA arena for rank 0 to 3, another one for 3+ upwards but that won't be possible.

To explain myself better AND STATING THE OBVIOUS:

A rank 0 player who decides to start HA has 3 things against him when embarking on this venture.

1/ Finding a suitable build (wiki and websites offer some help). But the player has to test them out and adapt as and when required - this is a hindrance in HA where there is so high standards of PVP (i do not condone the high standards btw).

2/ Finding a team may take a long time to achieve for some players. THIS is a fact.

3/ Get insulted or humiliated by some and I say some players who already have rank and who don;t remember when they were rank 0s.

So please don't criticise my post.

What I have posted here and in my previous post whether you like or not are plain and unadulterated facts.

All for now ..........

coleslawdressin · Jan 08, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

This is sort of a hidden feature of GW.. and one that people may dispute or ANET may never admit.. but it is true and you would notice it if you played long enough. Tombs seems to give a preference to matching teams by total team rank. Of course that doesn't mean that you won't play teams of all ranks.. Not enough people play... same reason that your idea of a separate arena for unranked people wont work.

Removing fame would just piss off people so there is no solution for you except joining a tombs guild or getting people on friends list to play with.

Yawgmoth · Jan 08, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Rank discrimination is not a problem at all, the fame and rank system should remain as it is now.
Why do people call it discrimination when players simply want to play with others having similar rank? It's a very normal thing that cant be avoided, players with no rank join groups that dont care about rank, players with rank 6 want to play with other rank 6 players and so on.

Think about a new player wanting to join a top guild to play GvG with them, they obviously won't accept him, so is this discrimination too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Unfortunately, that image doesn't capture a "hint" but rather abuse of a system that was put in place at the request of players. Seeing that, and hearing the complaints of players who would like to use the system in its intended fashion, I imagine Support may be forced to start actioning accounts. Either that, or we change, adjust, or remove the trade portion of the entire system and go back to WTS in town.

Please, folks, if you know anyone doing this, tell them to stop -- it's not going to make the slightest difference in the decisions of the designers, and it's extremely antisocial and counterproductive.

Why abuse, why so harsh? I happened to be there, this was an sponteaous event with players joining and adding their messages, not an exploit. It only shows that there are a a big and strong group of players that want 8v8. I meet them everyday.
Removing the trade portion? They used it simply because there were 0 trade posts there, it's Heroes Ascent not Kamadan. They didn't even interrupt all those 5 players LFGing, they used a separate unused section. Removing it would only pour the spam to other sections where it would be much more annoying.
I myself didn't join them as I don't think 8v8 is the only way to go. For me HA has to be balanced, fun to play and appealing to the large majority of players. And i want to see it return to its old glory. So i can't wait to see the incoming changes.

samcobra · Jan 08, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

1/ Finding a suitable build (wiki and websites offer some help). But the player has to test them out and adapt as and when required - this is a hindrance in HA where there is so high standards of PVP (i do not condone the high standards btw).

Press 'B'. Yay, observer mode. Now, young buck, go forth and OBSERVE. See what others do. Everyone starts out by copying other builds. People who want to do something original with low-ranked people usually fail. Anyway, of course, learning how to play the maps are hard when you've never been there before and dont know what to do. However, once you have a couple of competent people and some competent strat callers who know what they're doing, it goes a lot easier. The 'N' button is useful too,

unspokenglory · Jan 08, 2007, 10:24 AM // 10:24

*sigh*

I... dont think any one is reall y listening to any one here.. and to be truthfull . i see valid points to both sides . but i seriously agree with it being haerd to even start out in hoh . with soo many not willing to just sdtop and help some one from time to time .. .. ive been there a few times and my expeirence with it was horrible .. i been told to screw off stfu noob etc.. for simply asking questions ... tring to look for a group and basicly getting a feel for it .... an di hate to tell you but watching somthing isnt gonna teach you anything but some skills .. best way for most people to learn is first hand .. and about 80% of you that play hoh wont do it .. but you all forget .. you where once that rank 0 with no knowledge of what the hell you where doing or even where to start .. but eventually some one helped you out .. but instead of changing how all that went and helping some one else out from time to time .. you didnt and now you want to sit here and complain .. well do this and do that and watch this and you will know what your doing .. please .. i did that i got the so called * build* they wanted me to run etc. ran with ranks 7's and you know where it got me .. *kick that noob , he's a moron, etc.. etc.. " and you all call this fun ? lmao i mean seriously .. when i enter hoh .. its like being back in high school .. they are cool becuase they got a rank and your a noob and you suck blah blah blah .. i suck becuase i never been here before .. yes in your eyes i do but in my eyes im learning such as you did once when you first entered hoh your self .!! so stop the nonsince about do this and that and just put out a hand and help instead

B Ephekt · Jan 08, 2007, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

A rank 0 player who decides to start HA has 3 things against him when embarking on this venture.

1/ Finding a suitable build (wiki and websites offer some help). But the player has to test them out and adapt as and when required - this is a hindrance in HA where there is so high standards of PVP (i do not condone the high standards btw).

Nobody is forcing you to stand around spamming "LFG" if you don't want to. If you consider yourself a good player, then start your own groups and lead other players, then add the good players to your friends list. I got most of my fame by starting my own groups and making friends. Once you make friends rank doesn't matter one bit.

I'm not really sure how you can logically complain about having to test builds, though. And imo, pvp without high standards of play would be pretty boring considering that pvp is all about competition.

Anyway, here's the thing about rank. It doesn't necessarily reflect player skill, but the truly good players (as in players who are genuinely good at the game, and don't just talk a lot on forums) don't stay low ranked for very long. So perhaps you should post less complaints on these forums and go get your rank.

Quote:

2/ Finding a team may take a long time to achieve for some players. THIS is a fact.

I've had a tiger for a long time now and I still have problems finding PUGs. That's just the nature of spamming all chat for PUGs, trust me, it's not a problem that is exclusive to low ranked players.

Also, most of the teams I see forming in the international districts these days are rank 0-3, so all you people complaining about being left out obviously aren't looking very hard.

Quote:

3/ Get insulted or humiliated by some and I say some players who already have rank and who don;t remember when they were rank 0s.

If being called names by children offends you so much then perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

This is sort of a hidden feature of GW.. and one that people may dispute or ANET may never admit.. but it is true and you would notice it if you played long enough. Tombs seems to give a preference to matching teams by total team rank.

I've been playing tombs since beta, this is not true at all. Please don't spread false information.

unspokenglory · Jan 08, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

If being called names by children offends you so much then perhaps the internet isn't the place for you.
.

perhaps it doesnt effect you and maybe your right but all that shows is there are a bunch of people out there with out morals towards other people nor is there any respect and if i wanted to play with a bunch of juviniel actin g adults teenagers etc....... id go to the park and play some basketball rather then sit here and be called names cuz some one sat in there chair longer then me and played the game ..pfft

coleslawdressin · Jan 08, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I've been playing tombs since beta, this is not true at all. Please don't spread false information.

It is most noticeable with underworld. If you go between playing in teams of all high rankers then join random invite noobways and tombs is busy enough, you will see it. I didn't say that you would get a no opposing party or anything, it is more subtle. Anyhow, it would take at least 3 teams entering at the same time to prove anything.....You can take my statement or leave it

Now lets get back to talking about how much 6v6 sucks.

shutthatdoor · Jan 08, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

looking forward to the changes, I'm not really a ha fan (r5), and have had most fun there with heroway, no waiting till you find a team, funny battles with weird health charts^^

Since heroway was removed from ha, however, I've done about 4 runs or something, and had no fun at all due to extremely boring holding builds.
I like the idea of making the hall of heroes a set of different maps with different victory conditions. This would make the builds more balanced.
I'ld also like more maps like underworld and dark chambers, 1v1 deathmatch.
If things like there are implemented, I'ld probably do some ha again.

as to the rank system, I understand how annoying it is not finding a team, being insulted, etc. just because you are (relatively) new to ha/pvp in general. Imo, the word noob is used way too much by people by people who make mistakes as well (doesn't everyone???).

Guildwars is a game with great PvP, and still lots of unused potential.

another subject, what's happening in gvg now is just annoying, since the last update, rating farming would have been "nerfed", but instead, it has gotten far worse and some guilds are getting an unfair advantage on other by playing
on certain times of the day at which there are almost no other "worthy opponents" available. In general, I get the feeling that a lot of guilds played 1-2 battles and then simply stopped gvg'ing. the guild I'm in is about r250 and about 1/3 battles we played was to rank 50 or "better" guilds.

one final thing, NERF THE SCYTHE, the thing deals WAAAAAAAAAY too much damage for it's attack speed.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 08, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Yey nice 1 Anet hopefully ull make things better in HA for both newbies and Veterans. Go go power Anet!

keep up the good work & i look forward to the new things u come up with.

tomcruisejr · Jan 08, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I think A.Net must perma ban those people who are using the party search to whine and to convince A.net to bring back 8vs8. Party search isnt made for that crap.

baz777 · Jan 08, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

First off, Anet will not abolish the rank/emote system, it has been in place from day one and will upset too many people. Therefore, rank discrimination will remain.

PVP is the ‘flagship’ of Guildwars in Anet’s eyes, (my personal opinion), and the proposed skill balancing will be biased towards the PVP side of the game, (I’ll be very surprised otherwise).

You will not eliminate elitism and obnoxious behaviour, (sadly HA is the worst place in the game for this).

Rank 0 to Rank 3 is an enormous grind with PUG’s and joining an experienced Guild, being unranked, I would imagine be near impossible.

I am interested in seeing the forthcoming updates as if believe Anet has an almost impossible, and thankless, task ahead of them. Particularly if they want to make PVP, HA in particular, more accessible to the GW community. 6v6 is a step in the right direction and should remain.

Lord Mendes · Jan 08, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsalamandra

Now you want to teach me the english language. LOL you do show your true colours here by giving an image of trying to be superior.

As to the quote option, I do know about it but cba to use it

I am not commenting any further in this post on your stupid replies dude. You want to carry on with this PM me.

appologies to Gaile for getting carried away here but its attitudes like these of the above person that spoil the contents of the game but such is life.

i get slagged off by this person because I express an opinon. Sad.

rofl, are you serious? He is not trying to be your superior, just defending his ideas, which are 100% correct.

Starting off is an issue for some in HA, but rank is a DIRECT indication of experience in HA, and it is obvious that unless players know each other and have played together beforehand, rank is the best indication of how well someone can perform in an HA environment.

Lets look at it this way. Let's say you are doing the quest "Last Day Dawns", which is the titan quest that starts off in Frontier Gate, Old Ascalon. As you may know, this quest is quite challenging and usually results in failure when attempted by random PuGs.
Now Frontier Gate is always full of level 7-8s just because it is very early part of the game. Would you, a level 20 with infused armor and good gear, attempt these quests with this level 7 with very little experience, crappy gear, and absolutely piss skills unlocked?
This is the reason why a ranked person will generally ask for ranked people, whether they are skills players or not.
But unranked players can still find unranked teams, start teams and add people to friend's list. The SB vent is always open to everyone, and vent should enhance communication and therefore increase your chances of getting a decent run.
Eventually you will have a regular team and fame will be something you don't think about anymore.

HA is like PvE: if you want to solo Hell's Precipice (win halls and get high ranked), you must go through the entire game and do quests and farm for experience and cash (get game, build a f-list, get experience).
Anet have been trying their best to make HA more accessible to the newer players (*cough* 6v6, party formation system), but you must not expect them to hand you a f-list and a tiger.
Hell, most of us had to put up with a lot of crap to get our rank (ranger spiking without vent, running horrible builds with horrible pugs), but with dedication and effort we got there and were enjoying HA (until it was made worthless :P).
Now please stop being stupid and claiming that "HA is full of rank descimination! They wont let me run my pro R/Mo hidden healer!" (/wink @ gaile) because if you don't put in the effort, you will never get there.

lyra_song · Jan 08, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

rofl, are you serious? He is not trying to be your superior, just defending his ideas, which are 100% correct.

Starting off is an issue for some in HA, but rank is a DIRECT indication of experience in HA, and it is obvious that unless players know each other and have played together beforehand, rank is the best indication of how well someone can perform in an HA environment.

Lets look at it this way. Let's say you are doing the quest "Last Day Dawns", which is the titan quest that starts off in Frontier Gate, Old Ascalon. As you may know, this quest is quite challenging and usually results in failure when attempted by random PuGs.
Now Frontier Gate is always full of level 7-8s just because it is very early part of the game. Would you, a level 20 with infused armor and good gear, attempt these quests with this level 7 with very little experience, crappy gear, and absolutely piss skills unlocked?
This is the reason why a ranked person will generally ask for ranked people, whether they are skills players or not.
But unranked players can still find unranked teams, start teams and add people to friend's list. The SB vent is always open to everyone, and vent should enhance communication and therefore increase your chances of getting a decent run.
Eventually you will have a regular team and fame will be something you don't think about anymore.

HA is like PvE: if you want to solo Hell's Precipice (win halls and get high ranked), you must go through the entire game and do quests and farm for experience and cash (get game, build a f-list, get experience).
Anet have been trying their best to make HA more accessible to the newer players (*cough* 6v6, party formation system), but you must not expect them to hand you a f-list and a tiger.
Hell, most of us had to put up with a lot of crap to get our rank (ranger spiking without vent, running horrible builds with horrible pugs), but with dedication and effort we got there and were enjoying HA (until it was made worthless :P).
Now please stop being stupid and claiming that "HA is full of rank descimination! They wont let me run my pro R/Mo hidden healer!" (/wink @ gaile) because if you don't put in the effort, you will never get there.

I disagree. Rank is NOT a direct indication of experience.

Hypothetically:

I play a Ranger. I get to rank 3 playing as a ranger. I wanna play but no one wants a Ranger, so i switch to Monk.

Whats the indication that my rank which gained through one class, indicates my experience in another class?

Do you see a flaw in the system yet?

Another thing that bothers me, is that you can gain fame just via winning the first map over and over through pure grind, you gonna run into a group worse than you sooner or later. You do not need to make it through all the maps, or beat HoH to gain fame.

What experience will a player who reached rank 3, via grinding the first map show?

You compare Rank and HA to the later missions and quests of PvE. This is actually is a good comparison, since you can get run, carried over, and AFK on quests and missions and still reach those later areas without learning anything, just as you can gain rank 3 and still suck.

ChaoticCoyote · Jan 08, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

People like me (who played some HA, but not alot) can judge if there's an improvement or not. This game was made as a mixture of PVE and PVP. If they wouldn't want players to play across both they would sell it as seperate games without either influencing each other.

They do sell it separately. Go to the in-game store, and you can buy a PvP-only edition of the game, no PvE required.

However, PvP is *STILL* required for PvE players to access all of their content. Access to UW and FoW is still controlled through PvP.

ANet seems to think PvE is for people who want funny hats, and PvP is the "real" game. For some of us, PvE *is* the game, and forcing us into PvP is just downright annoying, especially since PvPers have ways "around" PvE now.

Y O U Lo Se · Jan 08, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I disagree. Rank is NOT a direct indication of experience.

Hypothetically:

I play a Ranger. I get to rank 3 playing as a ranger. I wanna play but no one wants a Ranger, so i switch to Monk.

Whats the indication that my rank which gained through one class, indicates my experience in another class?

Do you see a flaw in the system yet?

Another thing that bothers me, is that you can gain fame just via winning the first map over and over through pure grind, you gonna run into a group worse than you sooner or later. You do not need to make it through all the maps, or beat HoH to gain fame.

What experience will a player who reached rank 3, via grinding the first map show?

You compare Rank and HA to the later missions and quests of PvE. This is actually is a good comparison, since you can get run, carried over, and AFK on quests and missions and still reach those later areas without learning anything, just as you can gain rank 3 and still suck.

At least you have some experience on the maps now, an idea (at least I hope you have) about what skills are good, what skills suck and you'll get an idea of how to run other classes as well (the basics) which gives you more experience then a r0 monk just starting.

I mean, I never played warrior, mostly monking or casters, but when I hear the warriors in my team talking and seem them moving I do get a general idea about how to play with a warrior, which makes me a better warrior then people who are just starting/have much less experience then me.

In this way rank DOES indicate that you have some experience.

Neo Nugget · Jan 08, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

i like 6v6,i think its a little less hectic than 8v8 but thats just me.

B Ephekt · Jan 08, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I disagree. Rank is NOT a direct indication of experience.

Hypothetically:

I play a Ranger. I get to rank 3 playing as a ranger. I wanna play but no one wants a Ranger, so i switch to Monk.

Whats the indication that my rank which gained through one class, indicates my experience in another class?

Do you see a flaw in the system yet?

A player still gains knowledge of the maps, tactics, builds, counters and current metagame. This experience DOES count, because no matter how good of a ranger you are, if you can't identify what your job is on a specific map, against a specific build, then you're basically worthless to your team.

Furthermore, I've found that players will generally say they're bad a certain class if you simply ask them.

Quote:

Another thing that bothers me, is that you can gain fame just via winning the first map over and over through pure grind, you gonna run into a group worse than you sooner or later. You do not need to make it through all the maps, or beat HoH to gain fame.

What experience will a player who reached rank 3, via grinding the first map show?

How many players do you think got rank 6 by winning Underworld 1000 times, or rank 9 by winning it 4665 times? At the lower ranks it is quite possible to grind out some fame, but if a player is incompetent it wont' take very long for the team to notice.

The flaw in your argument here is that you're equating rank to skill. This isn't always the case - some people pick things up quickly, some need a long time and lots of repetition to get it; however, rank is still the best way to gauge a complete stranger's experience. We all know it's not a perfect system, but it's certainly better than nothing.

We all know there are bad high ranked players, but for someone trying to form a PUG it's just easier to ask for, say, r9+ players and then kick the bad ones than it is to sift through handfuls of people who may have been pvping for all of 5 minutes.

lyra_song · Jan 08, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

The flaw in your argument here is that you're equating rank to skill. This isn't always the case - some people pick things up quickly, some need a long time and lots of repetition to get it; however, rank is still the best way to gauge a complete stranger's experience. We all know it's not a perfect system, but it's certainly better than nothing.

Actually, im equating rank to time spent, not skill.

Rank is not a direct guage at your experience, or skill. (which is my counter to Lord Mendes' obscure comparison to being PvE's higher missions as indication of player skill)

I would definitely agree that it helps somewhat in gauging skill, but its not perfect.

Rank is a shortcut, but talking it out with a potential teammate is still the best route to gauging their skill (IMO). Instantly dismissing someone who doesnt have any rank, when they might be very good players who just havent spent as much time (like you said, some people learn faster) to gain fame is kind of unfair.

Please note im not saying that those with Rank 9+ farmed their way there, unlike PvE, PvP does have a threshhold where dumb luck and fame farming can only take you far.

I do not know what kind of solution there could be to this situation, but whatever changes Anet might propose would surely cause a ruckus.